From: Alessandro Baretta (alex@baretta.com)
Date: Sun May 12 2002 - 12:25:43 EDT
David Chart wrote:
> Dom asked me to forward this for him.
>
> David Chart
>
> Forwarded message:
>
> Alex,
>
> Firstly, I must point out to you that the overwhelming majority of free
> software projects are not democracies; rather they are meritocracies.
> For those of you unfamiliar with the term, it means that more weight or
> consideration is given to certain individuals, because they have
> contributed more to the advancement of the project. This does not mean
> that your voice is worthless, but it does mean that it is given much
> less consideration than, say, Martin's or mine. Much as you'd like to
> believe in "one person, one vote", it isn't how things operate here, nor
> is it how things should operate.
Agreed. This project is yours, insofar as the code working
in Abiword has been written by you. But by your choice--of
the entire team, actually--Abiword is an asset of the entire
free software community. I argue that in this community
everyone has a right to express a sensible opinion. Not
necessarily to see it enacted.
> The moral of this story: rudeness toward volunteers is unacceptable. If
> you want a volunteer to help you, be nice to them. David was not nice,
> and got not only what he deserved, but also several answers to his
> problem. He should've just eaten his "humble pie" and cut his losses.
Of course, had he "eaten his 'humble pie'" we would not have
had this "ongoing argument". But, you see, this just proves
that rudeness engenders more rudeness, tactlessness more
tactlessness. And both engender such ongoing arguments as
this. Let's just try to keep cool, bilaterally, so to speak.
> As for your bug, do as David Chart said and file it in bugzilla. If it
> is invalid, we will close it as invalid. If there is a real problem, it
> won't be forgotten and will be looked at eventually. This is the only
> 100% failproof way of getting your problem addressed.
Ok. I will heed your advice. I just wanted some feedback
before filing a bug report. I tend to prefer to mention my
difficulties with other users, as well as with the
developers, before filing a nonsensical bug report.
> As for anger management, have you ever gotten really mad at someone and
> gone running? Punched a pillow? Drank? We all deal with our frustrations
> in different ways, and in the end, what we do tends to lessen our
> frustrations. I was mad at David. I flamed him. I felt better. It's hard
> to argue against that.
What can I say? You probably are entitled to that. As for
me, I prefer to "killfile", as you said, people I do not
wish to hear from. That does not mean I killfile people with
whom I have an open argument, but only people who waste my
time sending mail I do not care to read. Maybe a killfiling
him would have been better.
> Was it the best decision for the AbiWord community? Probably not, but
> contrary to your belief, it might have had some seriously good
> reprocussions. Was it the best decision for me? Probably.
>
> David Thompson is free to rant and rave all he wants. He can complain
> about his problems. We as developers are free to respond to them, ignore
> them, or get sick and tired of hearing them. There are *many* tools on
> the internet that could've solved his problem for them, had he simply
> looked. Something (whether it be laziness, newness to the community, or
> something else) stopped him from doing so. He decided to lash out and in
> the process, bit off more than he could chew.
His tone, as well as his contents, were wrong. I do not wish
to argue with this.
> Our expectations page shows that we don't want to be *bugged* by the
> community. We do, however, want to help foster a strong and educated
> community. We are *all* willing to help those persons who ask us kindly
> for favors and help. This is not bugging, this is polite discussion.
> Bugging is saying "come on get your act together and fscking help me".
> This is rude, and there is no place for it in the AbiSource community or
> any other, as far as I'm concerned. You're asking for a piece of the
> most valuable thing in the world - someone's time. If you're polite
> about it, you might get some of it. If you're not, well, shite happens.
> We're all human, with emotions, just like you. Don't tread on them, and
> we'll be more inclined to help you.
I largely agree. There exists a portion of the community
which is largely uneducated in politeness towards the
developers. This simply a fact to cope with. Your "user
expectations" page gets some important points through, and
it is rather sensible for someone who has joined the
community--albeit only as user--some time ago and has
learned, more or less, what are sensible expectations to
impose on free software. Basically, these amount to the
following: one can expect products as good as he or she is
willing to make them, given the time and effort that has
gone and can go into them. This is more than one cas ask of
a commercial product, which is only as good the software
company is willing to make it, given their aim to maximize
their profit.
I greatly value free software. Consequently, I greatly value
the time, effort, competence, and dedication the developers
put into it. This is true for the most basic components of
the operating system, such as the kernel, but it is even
more true for such application software as Abiword, which
even the free software world with the commercial systems by
allowing for complete portability and interoperability.
> As maintainer, I am responsible for managing the developers, coding
> stuff, doing press releases, and helping out users where I can. There's
> no mention of being a "nice guy, no matter what" in that job
> description. Again, if you're nice to us, we're nice back. If you're
> rude to us, you get what you deserve.
Mr. Lachowicz, by chosing to be a free software developer
you are voluteering your time and work for the betterment of
computing. This makes you a "nice guy". The "no matter what"
only means following Virgil's advice to Dante in the Comedy:
"Non ti curar di loro, ma guarda e passa." "Take no heed of
them, but look and leave."
> People do benefit from flames. Sometimes it's the "wakeup call" that is
> so dreadfully needed as was the case here. People need to be taught
> lessons, and some of those lessons are hard ones. I needed to feel less
> mad about the situation, and I did by responding to David. Now please
> grow up, get out of this new-age hippie mindset, and learn how the world
> operates. This isn't utopia, but it very well could be closer to it if
> people learned some respect and politeness. The world owes you nothing,
> Mr. Baretta. If you go around being nice to people, you find out that
> you're generally getting more help than you think you deserve.
I will not attempt to change your mind concerning flames. I
guarantee that I neither new-age nor hippie. I believe in
cooperation, that's all. I doubt it can be established
through the use of such instruments as flames on mailing
lists. And, yes, you are right: I usually get more help than
I deserve, because I like to bear respect to people I relate
to, and I "take no heed" of those who bear none to me.
> And finally, please stop calling me Mr. Lachowicz.
Excuse me, Dom. I meant no harm. It's just a matter of
habit. Feel free to address me as Alex, if you like.
Let me just add that I think this ongoing argument has gone
as far as any one of us can stand. I have expressed my
opinions, and you have read them and commented them
thoroughly. This is about as far as this can go. I hope this
discussion has carried a little more good--in terms of
thoughtfulness--than evil--in terms of time spent reading
and righting messages, which might have been spent coding or
otherwise.
Thank you for attention, Dom.
Regards,
Alex Baretta
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